I think I’ve found a way to understand Christianity, probably not in the way that Christians do but in a way that makes sense to me. I’ve been reading about Greek mythology and other ancient (some may say extinct) religions and I noticed that the all the myths had something in common. They all had within them a message, a lesson that shouldn’t be forgotten. Myths were a way of documenting human knowledge, the stories themselves were totally unbelievable but thats what made them memorable , they didn’t even need to be fully memorized because the core of the story was what was important not the little details. Rightly or wrongly, but in a way that I understand, I applied the same logic to Jesus. And I found a certain beauty. Did Jesus exist? I have no idea, I can argue for and against with as many people as I like and get no closer to an answer. But it doesn’t matter if he existed or not! The message that he embodies certainly did, and does, exist. People really did come to the conclusion that forgiveness, neighborliness, gentleness, kindness and compassion are whats important if we are to live peaceful and worthwhile lives. Was Jesus God? I don’t think so, but the message he embodies is whats important. It’s so obviously a good message, that it should ever be forgotten is a very frightening prospect for me as a person and an atheist. So I just want to remind fellow atheists and Christians that being skeptical about supernatural events and entities should never overshadow the deeper meaning in all this. We can still understand Jesus’ message and even strive to be like him ( or any other legendary character whether they exist or not, I for one try to be like Gandalf 
) without having to accept supernatural things.
Atheists for Jesus (yes I stole that from Dawkins)
October 8, 2008 at 3:36 pm (Atheism)
Russ said,
October 8, 2008 at 4:26 pm
I agree that it is the message that we must receive but in the case of Christianity that is exactly the problem for Jesus’ message testifies that mankind is lost and blinded by sin and that there is nothing that a man can do to save himself from eternal damnation. The message of Jesus Christ is not, “Be a good boy or girl and you will go to heaven”. Far from it, the message of Jesus is much more radical than that. It is a message that says, “all of mankind is lost in sin and as a result, all mankind is condemned forever.” Jesus put it this way, “He who believes in (Me) is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
In addition to this, the message of Jesus excludes all other religions that come before Him or that would come after Him, including Gandalf! Jesus alone claims to be the Savior of the world and He is not willing to share this claim with any other. Jesus put it this way, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” He exclusively claims to be the authority concerning whom God will accept and whom God will reject and judge.
Absolutely, it is the message that is all important and it is the message of Jesus that makes Christianity unique among all religions of the world for all religions have this in common – that by being good or saying certain prayers or by visiting Mecca or by something that I DO, God will accept me. Every religion on the face of the earth is a religion that is based on the “good works” of a person to earn “heaven”, or “nirvana” or “whatever”. Christianity stands in stark contrast to every religious system of man for Christianity proclaims that there is absolutely nothing that a person can do or say to earn a place in heaven. Instead, Christianity insists that salvation is attained not by what you can do, but only by what Jesus has done in sacrificing Himself on the cross for mankind.
Jesus did not go to the cross against His will. Instead, He willingly suffered the agony of the cross to pay the debt for your sin. “The wages of sin is death”, the Bible proclaims and Jesus suffered death in your place so that by faith in him, you may have eternal life. It was not the nails that held Jesus to the cross, it was His love for you that held him to the cross to pay the price for your sin and bring you into a new and living relationship with God.
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. [John 10:18]
I agree, the message is all important.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. [John 5:24]
abellaspectra said,
October 8, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Hey Oliver here is a quote from C.S. Lewis you should read before you make the dangerous conclusion that Jesus is not God. I encourage you to check out my Blog GODspaceblog.wordpress.com and other Christian resources, hopefully they will answer all of the questions you have about Christianity.
Grace and Peace Deneen
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Oliver Winks said,
October 8, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Wow, people are actually reading my blog, thats good to know
First of all thanks for the comments I’m pleased you found my blog and found this post interesting enough to comment on.
Russ, I’m not sure whether your a Christian or not. I guess you are, or at least were, by the use of bible quotes. Correct me if I’m wrong but your saying that; yes the message is all important but Jesus’ message was not “live your life in this way or that” but rather “I am God and will forgive your sins”. Is that a fair summary of your comment? If this is the case, then I must conclude that I have misunderstood Jesus’ message. If the message really was “believe in me because I’m God” then I must say I am totally unconvinced. However, I don’t think I have misunderstood his message. If we really are already condemned and there is nothing we can do to change this other than believe in Jesus, then why would he teach compassion and forgiveness? It seems he did want us to live by his example, in which case his message was what I thought it was.
abellaspectra, I’ve read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity, is that where this quote comes from? I found C.S. Lewis’ arguments to be beautifully written (he truly was an amazing author) but not very convincing. Most Christians are eager to point atheists toward his work (I’ve been pointed in that direction several times) and I really don’t know why.
Jesus was probably not the first to claim to be God and certainly won’t be the last. In this respect I do think he’s a lunatic (as C.S. Lewis puts it) and if the core of his message was “I am God, believe in me” and not to promote forgiveness and compassion then I have completely misunderstood the message and am at a total loss as to why you find that convincing and worthy of remembrance and promotion. I think C.S. Lewis is way out of line saying “patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher”, why is that patronizing nonsense? I personally find the ‘humanistic’ message of Jesus (forgiveness and compassion) to be far more moving than the claim of his divinity. What’s nonsense is the idea that a man could be the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe, descended to Earth to save humanity. The very same humanity that he condemned (or rather made in such a way that we had no choice but to condemn ourselves).
What I really wanted to get across in this post was this: If we take the message to be most important, then it doesn’t really matter if Jesus was God or not. I agree that I may have misunderstood Jesus message, but if I’m right then it doesn’t even matter if Jesus existed or not because a myth doesn’t have to be true to contain meaning. Is it not possible that the story of Jesus is a myth, or at least an exaggeration of the truth? What better way to spread a message, something you really believe in (even willing to die for!), than to turn it into legend, never to be forgotten. Other cultures did this, you only have to look at the ancient Greeks to see how effective this method of communication is.
P.S. I hope I don’t come across like a Gandalf worshiping buffoon, I only said that to make a point
Russ said,
October 8, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I think we all understood your Gandalf comment
Before you outright reject the claims of Jesus, ask yourself if you are good enough to get to heaven. The Bible says that if you keep the 10 commandments, God will accept you, however, if you have not kept them perfectly all of your life, the Bible declares that you are a sinner and because you are a sinner, you cannot enter into heaven because God is perfectly holy and will not allow sin to corrupt His kingdom. So how about it, are you good enough to get to heaven on your own? Here is just one of the commandments:
You shall not commit adultery.
Jesus expanded this commandment when He said, “whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” [Mat 5:28]
You see, God not only requires perfection in our actions, He also requires perfection in our thoughts and motives. Even if we manage to restrain ourselves from committing adultery physically, if we are dreaming of it or desiring it or looking at porn, we are already guilty of breaking this commandment.
So, how are you doing? This is just one of the commandments of a Holy God. There are nine more. Based on just this one, are you good enough to make to heaven on your own? Have you ever broken this commandment, even once?
The law of God (the 10 commandments) was not given by God to save us, it was given by God to condemn us! The law of God was given to us to teach us that we are sinners and that we need a Savior. No one in history has ever kept the 10 commandments. No one except Jesus Christ. Jesus alone stands out in history as the only man who has ever kept the law of God perfectly, not only in His actions, but also in His thoughts – all of His life.
As I have said before, the Bible teaches that all of mankind is lost in sin and condemned for eternity because all have sinned. The Bible teaches that Jesus alone is able to save a person from hell because Jesus paid the price for your sin when He suffered in your place on the cross. Jesus did not suffer on the cross for His own sin – He had none. Instead He willing went to the cross to pay the debt that you and I owe. He suffered in our place so that we may go free.
This is the gospel message. The word “gospel” means, “good news”. The message of the Bible is though you and I are guilty of rebellion against God, Jesus has paid the price for our rebellion and offers us forgiveness. Don’t take my word for it, listen to what Jesus Himself says in this familiar verse:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [John 3:16-19]
abellaspectra said,
October 13, 2008 at 1:03 am
Hey Oliver how is it going, if you have not done so you should check out my blog, the address again is godspaceblog.wordpress.com. My blog a place where I provide insights about my life and the world from a Christian perspective but it is also suppose to be a discussion place for people of all belief patterns, so I would really appreciate it if you shared your perspective, so please do check it out
Sincerely
Deneen
Daniel Lewis said,
October 23, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Wow Oli!
You’ve just described my theology exactly!
Just one thing that I add, I feel that if Jesus did exist at that specific time… then it’s unlikely that he was just one person. He was probably made to be one person by collating several stories which should actually be attributed to many (not sure if that makes sense). Like you say, I also agree that Jesus was probably not God, but the things that (t)he(y) taught, like those found in Greek/Roman Mythology or most other religions, are Universal (therefore entirely beyond religious dogma) and have some kind of poetic beauty to them which sometimes we could do with taking into consideration in our day to day life.
In response to Russ. You seem to be quoting from the Bible, so I’ll class you as a Christian…. and I am Christian too. However, you cannot class Christians within the same boat, by quoting from the bible to people who may not understand the bible in EXACTLY the same way as you do is simply pointless. You shouldn’t attempt to convert people, and certainly not using scare tactics (once again using quotes from the bible). This isn’t how Christianity (or any other religion or way of life) is supposed to be, if you want a bible quote then look at the Song of Simeon when it says that Jesus was a light to lighten the Gentiles… not just the Jews, but the Gentiles too… therefore Christianity is therefore just the two New Testament Commandments and therefore completely valid with all kinds of cultural and religious practices (be they memes or otherwise)…. dependent on your definition of God (in my case this is a panentheistic understanding based on a trinitarian human descriptive and a universalist outlook).
So yeah, if you need me to clarify anything then please do ask. Essentially, I’m completely with Oli’s understanding of the beauty of the story behind the literal statements, and this is universal (and therefore can be found in things like Greek Mythology etc).
Cheers,
Daniel